Transcript: This Democrat Thinks Party Will Thump Trump in Shutdown

The following is a lightly edited transcript of the October 1 episode of
Right Now With Perry Bacon. You can watch this interview here.

Perry Bacon: Hi, I’m Perry Bacon. I’m the host of Right Now by The New Republic. I’m honored to be joined by Melanie Stansbury. She’s a Congresswoman from New Mexico. And I want to talk to her about, obviously, what’s happening in Washington today with the government shutdown, also some other issues as well. So welcome, Congresswoman.

Representative Melanie Stansbury: Hi, it’s great to be here. Well, given the circumstances.

Perry Bacon: I understand what you meant. So let me ask a question that I’m still a little bit confused about. Is the Democratic position purely about health care or is it about something broader? Is this a fight over ACA subsidies and Medicaid cuts or is this a broader debate about should the government be funded if Donald Trump is able to do whatever he wants to afterwards?

Stansbury: Yeah, well, let me just say: Democrats want to keep the government open. We are fighting to keep the government open. We are fighting to keep our federal employees employed and safe. We’re fighting to save American health care. And we’re fighting against the abuse of power that Donald Trump and his OMB director are exercising over the budget, including violating the U.S. Constitution in terms of the separation of powers.

But it’s important to understand the mechanics of this moment and how we got to a shutdown, because there’s a lot of misinformation and misreporting. And that’s by intention, because the Republicans are masters at creating elaborate smokescreens to basically make the public think something else is happening. It’s very much a sleight of hand.

And so it’s important to understand that the House is completely shut down right now. If you go back to your basic civics—how a bill becomes a law—you have to pass a bill in the House and the Senate. It has to come together, and then it has to get signed by the president. Well, the House is not even open right now.

So for the Republicans to claim that somehow we’re responsible for a shutdown is literally insane, because Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, shut down the House. There are no Republican members of Congress even in Washington, D.C. right now. So the sleight of hand they’re doing is this: the Senate is forcing votes on a bill over and over again that we already said no to. They’re trying to make it look like they’re passing a bill when, in fact, they’re not even engaging in good-faith negotiations. So it’s a big thing.

Bacon: The bill you all want to pass, the priorities are X. What is X?

Stansbury: The priorities are to keep the government funded and open and to address health care. So, as you know, the big ugly bill that passed just a couple of months ago was the largest cut in health care in American history. It cut Medicaid, it cut Medicare, and it basically cut these federal subsidies that help middle-income and low-income people pay for health insurance.

So, for example, I used to be on the marketplace—I’m still on the marketplace as a member of Congress, in fact. You pay your premiums through the marketplace. If your premiums are currently like $300, $400 a month, which is still a lot of money for health insurance, you’re about to see a notice from your health insurance company starting today—literally today—that says your health insurance is going to be jacked up by hundreds of dollars. And so if you’re a working family, you cannot afford your health insurance.

So basically what they’re trying to do is take away the subsidies that made it possible for working people to afford health insurance. In other words, they’re trying to take us back before the Affordable Care Act. They’re literally trying to destroy the Affordable Care Act.

So our bill that we have put forward would continue those subsidies so that working people can pay for health insurance if they’re on the exchange and would fix the Medicaid cuts that literally will kick millions of Americans off of health care. And this is necessary not only so that you don’t lose your health insurance in a month, but also so that our health care system doesn’t collapse.

So, in New Mexico, we already have a health care system that is severely strained, and hospitals, rural clinics are already trying to figure out how they’re going to stay open. This is about saving the American health care system and making sure that literally people’s lives can have access to basic health care.

Bacon: So the Republicans try to address the health care issue. That is, Trump can continue to stop federal spending of money. He can continue to flout laws. And so I guess I’m trying to drive it. Is the bottom line here health care? Because I think they might offer you something. A lot of us are concerned about things beyond health care. But it’s the position that all we really are talking about is health care, which is important, but obviously not the only issue happening in America right now. Is health care the bottom line here?

Stansbury: Well, yes and no. I mean, this is a very specific negotiation over a short-term continuing resolution to keep the government open. And the time-sensitive issue on this continuing resolution is the issue of health insurance basically becoming jacked up for literally every American out there who’s on health insurance. So that’s the time-sensitive issue in this negotiation.

But the Republicans aren’t even negotiating. They are pretending like they are, but they’re not. They’re not even physically here in Washington, D.C. And then they’re going on TV and telling the American people that we’re advocating to give health care for free to people who don’t have citizenship. I mean, we are being gaslit by the Republicans right now.

But the bigger issues—the issues of our democracy, the rule of law, the invasion of American cities—all those things are certainly at play. But there are different times and spaces where those battles are being fought.

Bacon: Well, what is the space where you are going to fight those battles? Because I’m waiting for that. I think a lot of people have waited in March, and now we’re waiting. And when are the people we elected—the House Democrats—going to talk about the other… like health care is important.

But is there any moment where you are going to lead on the other issues, which we seem to be kind of putting to the side, even in this? It’s like, well, you don’t have a lot of leverage here. This is one of the leverage points.

Do you want to use that to ask for the law to be followed on other policies?

Stansbury: Well, I mean, again, kind of going to the mechanics piece of it, right? So let’s talk about the abuse of power and invasion of American cities. Yesterday, you know, this so-called Secretary of Defense called generals from all over the world to Quantico here in the DMV area, basically, and held this insane—I don’t even know what you’d call that. It was like a pep rally.

Bacon: I don’t think they felt very pepped afterward, but okay.

Stansbury: No purity tests, bizarre ramblings of the president. And among the many, many things that were said to our nation’s generals was that they were going to put into place new regulations around how military operations and conduct are needed. And the president literally said he wanted to use American cities as training grounds for the military.

Bacon: Which is what I’m alarmed about. Yes.

Stansbury: Yes. This is illegal, first of all. So where does that battle get fought? For example, I mean, this is where—like—our system is complicated: there’s states’ rights and then there’s federal responsibilities. Right. So in the case of Washington, D.C., because there is a federal law regarding the federal relationship with Washington, D.C., there was a limited capability for the president to deploy the National Guard here in Washington, D.C. But it is illegal for him to deploy them to American cities that are not in the District of Columbia.

And so, for example, in Chicago, the governor of Illinois has said, if you come in here, we’re going to sue your ass. And so you better not send those troops here. And the president pulled back. Now, he still is planning to deploy some federal law enforcement to Chicago, but he significantly scaled back what he was planning to do, which was like a full-scale troop deployment like they did in L.A., because the governor of California sued in L.A., and the courts found it was illegal.

So when you say, how are we going to fight back? We are fighting back. But you’ve got to fight back in the right venue.

Bacon: In this bill, though, I think one of the issues I’m worried about is it appears the administration—Congress passes appropriations, then Russ Vought decides, I don’t want to spend these dollars. It would seem to me that how federal dollars are spent or not spent would be resolved in this kind of bill, right? Like, the mechanism to make Russ Vought spend money that’s appropriated would seem to be part of this discussion. So is that something you are going to insist upon—that when things are appropriated by Congress, they don’t just decide to cancel them for fun?

Stansbury: Yeah, I mean, that has been a discussion in every single one of these battles. But Russ Vought is already violating the law. So we can stand up and shout and say, you better pass this bill that promises X, Y, Z. Well, the U.S. Constitution is already saying Russ Vought is breaking the law. So the problem is enforcement.

And the problem is that our Republican colleagues seemingly don’t have a backbone anymore and seemingly don’t care about using their congressional authority to hold these guys in check. And so, sure, right now they’re going to start another vote in the Senate over the Republican C.R. The Republicans are trying to peel off five more Democratic members basically to pass their bill.

So at this point, the House is like, screw you. We’re not going to pass anything. We already voted against this. We are one hundred percent unified. But we don’t have the power in this situation. And that’s frankly why Mike Johnson has shut down the House, because he’s basically saying House Democrats are irrelevant since they don’t have the majority. But in the Senate, they need Democrats.

And so we have been advocating, working alongside, with leadership coordinating to make sure our Senate Democrats don’t fold. But, you know, the Senate is its own beast.

But yes, the question about the misappropriation of funds, the cutting of programs, the federal firings—all of those things are already illegal. So we can insist that they make them illegal again in these appropriations bills, but it doesn’t change the dynamic. Do you see what I’m saying?

Bacon: Okay.

Stansbury: The battle is in the courts right now around enforcement. So that’s why, in a certain respect, I think many people are like, well, just shut the whole thing down if they’re not going to follow the law. But the challenge is that has hugely detrimental consequences for the American people, right? Like people still need access to housing programs and food assistance programs and all these things.

So, you know, I think we face a really consequential Sophie’s choice when it comes to government shutdowns. It’s not like, OK, sure, shut the whole thing down and everything’s going to be fine because they can’t do what they want. Number one, they are going to do what they want. Russell Vought is literally talking to Republicans as we speak right now and telling them that he plans to mass fire hundreds of thousands of Americans.

Well, that’s illegal too. He can’t do that. But he’s ready to take it to the courts and try it out. And even if he loses in the court, he’s going to try it because he knows the psychology of people is that if you bully and demean people enough, they’ll quit their jobs.

So all the stuff that the Republicans are doing is bad and illegal. And we are trying to use every tool that we have for leverage. But in this particular battle involving this seven-week C.R., what we are fighting to make sure is that tens of millions of Americans don’t lose health care over the next couple of months.

Bacon: Talk about—so, you talked about Hegseth a little bit. We talked about when you saw what happened yesterday. What is—I mean, what is your reaction? Because I think it’s obvious, like, we want the generals—we don’t want generals to make up their own law. Like, what do people who work for the federal government in jobs like the military, like agencies, what should they be doing right now?

Because they are often being asked to do things that are, if not illegal, immoral. Like, he almost suggested yesterday that you shouldn’t report sexual harassment, you shouldn’t report racial discrimination. That was very scary to me. Because we want civilian control of the military—but maybe not this kind of civilian control.

So what should people in jobs like that, who work for the government, do?

Stansbury: Yeah, well, just a few reflections. You know, my partner is a Marine Corps veteran, and he follows a lot of Marine Reddit and other social media accounts. And so literally last night, I was like, what are the Marines saying? What did they think about what happened last night? Because I’m always interested to know.

And, you know, I think a lot of rank-and-file members of the military and veterans were shocked, disgusted, couldn’t believe what they saw yesterday. I mean, I’ll say this. I actually saw this on the U.S. Marines Reddit. Somebody said, that was not for the generals. That was for the American public.

Because, you know, Donald Trump is a reality TV star. Like, let us not forget that this man—not only is he not for our troops, he has said nothing but disparaging remarks about our troops and done disrespectful things, both to troops and our veterans. This man does not care about our military. But he is interested in shows of strength and trying to be a strongman. He even said that the other day, that he wants to be, you know, viewed as a strongman. And so that was a show. That was a show for the American people.

It was not a show for the military necessarily, though obviously Pete Hegseth thinks that he—I don’t even, I’m trying to be [rude]. But let me just say this: the things that they are being asked to do are illegal.

So what I would say to any either commissioned officer or just rank-and-file member of the military right now is: go back to your oath, go back to your training, and go back to the laws that you were taught when you enlisted or did your officer training. Be very clear about what your responsibilities are, what your duties are to this country. And if you are being asked to do something that is illegal, immoral, wrong, you have rights.

And certainly there are a lot of efforts to help support federal employees. So there’s an organization called Democracy Forward that is actually representing a lot of federal employees in these lawsuits against the administration. And they can even provide direct legal advice to members of the military and federal workers. So I really encourage people: know what your rights are.

I’ll say this: at the end of the day, every human who lives their life here on earth has to look themselves in the mirror. And at the end of your life, you need to be able to say to yourself when you look at yourself in the mirror: I did what I knew to be right. And so if you’re being asked to do something right now that you know is wrong, do the right thing. Because you will have to live with that.

Bacon: I talked to a federal employee yesterday who was talking about who’s not in the military. We talked about how I’m trying to do the right thing and I’m worried about getting fired. I do think we’re asking, with due respect, we actually can’t fire members of Congress. The one people in America whose jobs are actually fairly hard to,

beyond the election, are hard to fire. So we are asking, I like what you said, but we do need people at this moment in the world’s history to actually do what’s right and sometimes live with the consequences.

Stansbury: Yeah. I mean, but I’ll say this: when you stand on the right side of history, history will stand with you. And, you know, federal workers have rights. So that’s part of what I’m trying to say. Like, yeah, you may be a furloughed federal employee today and receive a notice tomorrow from OMB that your job has been terminated. But that’s a bunch of bullshit.

And so get a lawyer, talk to your union, know what your rights are. And I’m saying that as well for these military officers. You know, you went through a lot of training to get where you’re at. You know what your rights and responsibilities are.

And so know your rights and protect your rights, because at the end of the day, you get to make the decision about how you conduct yourself and whether or not you carry out things you know are wrong—or whether you do the right thing and stand up.

Bacon: Last question. So I think John Fetterman, Senator of Pennsylvania—I think he said something yesterday to the effect of, if we want to restore health care subsidies or whatever, we need to win more elections. Essentially saying there’s no point of fighting here because the election was the fight and that’s it.

How would you respond to that kind of argument? Like, what do you—like, I don’t love it, but I understand what it sort of means in a certain way. How do you respond to that? The election settled that Donald Trump gets what he wants to do now.

Stansbury: Well, not even Republicans agree with that. So, I mean, I don’t even want to platform that idea because even moderate Republicans don’t think that’s the right answer. In fact, what they’re arguing, what the White House is arguing to Democrats right now is wait another couple of months and we’ll fix it down the road.

Bacon: I see.

Stansbury: You see what I’m saying? So like, I mean, he’s just wrong. I don’t think it’s even worth engaging in the conversation about that particular argument. But we don’t trust these guys. They break their word over and over again. They haven’t even really given us their word.

And in fact—you know, I’m trying to be better and not swear so much, I hope this is okay—but this is a direct quote: Donald Trump literally told the Democrats to ‘f— off.’ He is not interested in negotiating and actually trying to fix this issue.

I mean, I think more than anything, if you look at the actions of Donald Trump and his allies and the people around him, he has so little regard for everyday Americans—so little regard for their lives, their dignity, their ability to thrive. He is more interested in corruption, in making money for himself and his friends and his family, and more interested in holding on to power than he is in anything else. And he says it, he shouts it from the rooftop every day that they’re doing something to help the American people. They clearly don’t care about the American people, and they’re going to do whatever they want, whether or not Congress says this or that.

And so that is why we need our Republican colleagues here in Congress to stand up, get a backbone, understand the Constitution, and fight back. Democrats are doing that, but we need our Republican allies to join us in that fight, or we are literally going to lose our democracy.

So I don’t agree with my Democratic colleague from Pennsylvania. I understand that he has a different point of view and position where he sits, and that is his prerogative. But also the people of Pennsylvania have a prerogative too, if they don’t agree with that. So, you know, our job right now is to fight for the American people.

Bacon: That’s a great place to end. I appreciate what you just said. So, Congresswoman, I wanted to meet you, so I’m glad I got to here. I hope I’ll meet you in person soon. Thanks for coming, and thanks for fighting the good fight, and good luck these next few days.

Stansbury: Thank you so, so much. Bye-bye.