What about Jack
Goldsmith's thesis that Bush's excesses resulted from a failure to recognize
that presidential power is the power to persuade. Was Bush's problem that he
had contempt for politics?
No, I think that, again, what Cheney convinced Bush of was
that if they did not go to the farthest possible regions of the law, the most
outermost edges of what you could do to detainees, then they would be shirking
their responsibility in terms of protecting the country. So rather than having
a policy debate and a political debate on what the right thing to do was, and
what the smartest thing to do was, they simply let the lawyers define policy by
setting the outer limits of the law. You have John Yoo saying, "Well, I'm
just a lawyer; I'm just telling you what you can do legally. It's above my pay
grade to have a policy debate." But his judgments became the policy
because they didn't have that debate.
Your book is a testament to the malleability of law, isn't it?
I'm not a lawyer, but I have to say, as somebody who's not a
lawyer, I was surprised that there seem to be almost no limits beyond which you
can stretch it once you've got a clever enough lawyer reinterpreting the law.
Harold Koh, the dean of the Yale
Law School,
has said he's never seen a more incorrect legal memo than the one that John Yoo
wrote on torture. But it seems there are no consequences for this. John Yoo
teaches without impunity and with tenure at Berkeley, and it's considered a First
Amendment issue that he continues on the faculty there. There seem to
be no kinds of repercussions for stretching the law almost beyond its breaking
point here.
Perhaps Koh was
overconfident. There are, after all, respectable supporters of unitary
executive theory. You quote Samuel Alito's defense of it. Was he defending
something different than what Cheney and Yoo made out of it? In other words,
how did unitary executive theory get radicalized by the Bush administration,
and would a different Republican administration have acted all that
differently?
I thought it was interesting what [Federalist Society
co-founder Steven] Calabresi told me, that he thought they went further than he
could quite support. It's very complicated from my standpoint, but it's as if
nothing is illegal. If you argue basically that the president stood above the
statutes, and if national security was involved, arguably they could break the
laws, right? And I mean, who's to say they're wrong? Is it the Supreme Court?
Who, finally, defines that?