Donald Trump: Abortions should be illegal, and “there has to be some form of punishment” for women who have them.

Trump’s shifting stance on abortion—in 1999 he described himself as “very pro-choice,” but now he is “pro-life” with exceptions in cases of rape and incest—means that neither side of the abortion debate trusts what he says. MSNBC’s Chris Matthews tried to get him to clarify:

Trump acknowledged that banning abortion would probably lead to women getting abortions in “illegal places,” but still thinks it should be illegal. “There has to be some form of punishment,” Trump said. As for what that punishment would be, he said, “I don’t know. That I don’t know.”

For those who think Trump’s haphazard approach to abortion is too soft, the Republican Party has a host of other attractive options: John Kasich recently defunded Planned Parenthood in Ohio, and Ted Cruz would not only ban abortion in cases of incest and rape, but, as someone who believes life begins at conception, would probably like to criminalize IUDs and Plan-B. 

Trump’s spokesman later said, “This issue is unclear and should be put back into the states for determination.” OK.