Transcript: Democrats Got Something Really Big Done in New Mexico

The following is a lightly edited transcript of the October 3 episode of Right Now With Perry Bacon. You can watch this interview here.

Perry Bacon: I’m honored to be joined today by Michelle Lujan Grisham, the governor of the great state of New Mexico—a beautiful state. If you haven’t been, you should. Everyone should try to make it to Albuquerque or Santa Fe—those are the places I’ve been—but it’s a great state to visit. So I’m honored to have her here today.

We’ve talked a lot about negative things happening in America. We’re in the middle of a government shutdown. Donald Trump says things our audience doesn’t like pretty much every hour, I think. But there are also really great things happening in states, and New Mexico is one of them. So, welcome, Governor

Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham: Thank you so much. And I’m going to do your podcast if I’m invited more often, if you’re going to promote tourism in my beautiful state. Little-known fact, but New Mexico has quite literally, not just figuratively, the clearest airspace. So it’s why we’ve got a sort of space presence and a space port.

So that blue gorgeous sky and those clouds is an actual real thing here. And given that we just lost Robert Redford; he moved here because of that light and those colors and that clear space. So clear your heads, come to New Mexico, and let us treat you right.

Bacon: Not just good weather, though, because New Mexico is going to become in November the only state that has universal childcare, no cost, universal free, you know, no cost, universal childcare. So I want to talk to you about that.

That’s a great thing and you got a shout-out from the potential mayor of New York. Zohran Mamdani, who actually noted if New Mexico can do it, we can do it in New York. And maybe he’s right about that. We’ll see. But I have two questions. First of all, explain to the audience exactly how that would work in terms of universal childcare. And then second, explain how you all did it.

Governor Lujan Grisham: All right, well, the first thing is—you said it, and thank you—it’s no cost. There’s no means testing. It’s not no cost for some, it’s no cost for all because then you build a system based on quality. That’s what we want.

And we know—because we already have a universal pre-K system that’s free. Every 3- and 4-year-old has access to developmental pre-K. I’ll also tell you, I think it’s the number one program in America. So this blueprint for early education is something we’re really dedicated to.

The way we do that is we determine that childcare and services as covering from 3 months old to 12 years old. So when parents think about before- and after-school care for grade school, now you’ve got those supports. We pay for that as well—because otherwise schools, particularly in poorer districts, don’t have it. And you need it. If you’re going to work, or go to college yourself, your schedule is eight to five, or seven-thirty to five-thirty.

Right now, we have 12,000 kiddoes in that age group that are paying at some level for childcare. Starting November 1, that 12,000, it’s all free. They’re already in, they’ve got a place to go; they’ve chosen a childcare—they’re good. There’s about another 12,000 kids, from 3 months old to 12 that are now eligible for free childcare. So we’re building a system while we make it available, and to make sure we can do that—particularly in rural areas—we’ve done two things. We put real money, millions of dollars, into infrastructure: buying buildings, remodeling buildings, giving out no-cost, free right-away grants so we can create spaces. We’re also for free training educators, childcare workers, so they get paid $18 to $21 an hour; they’re in the queue. While America has seen a decline, New Mexico’s seen a well over 60 percent increase in certified, licensed, trained educated childcare professionals. They learn about neuroscience and developmental skills. It’s fantastic.

And then home care: We’re taking away some of the bureaucratic nonsense and licensing them, certifying them, giving them support. So if they’ve got two kids, they could go to four readily, and we can support them now to do that, and of course, those will be free.

We pay providers. We don’t give the money out to the families—it’s hard to find you, it’s hard to screen you. We just pay those providers directly, and we’ve got one mandate: You’ve got to be available for 10 hours because this is the biggest frustration also in America, is that you can find a childcare but it’s only available for three hours a day. So we invest in the infrastructure. That’s how it works.

Bacon: So 10 hours, and up to age 12—OK, that’s big. I don’t think I fully understood it.

Governor Lujan Grisham: Yeah. And people are, Oh my God, you’re going to add all these folks. Remember, 12,000 people are already in childcare—we don’t have to recreate those slots.

One last thing I didn’t say: We pay for quality. There’s a quality incentive. The more money we pay you, the higher quality you get from our evaluations and parents. So we’re driving the best-in-the-country response—not just free access. I want the developmental side here—that’s what every family wants: the safest, highest-quality environment for their kids.

And I ran on this in 2018. We were going to lean into childcare; we were going to lean into pre-K. We were going to find creative ways to finance it. So I do want America to know, I didn’t just do it overnight. We built it for six years. We started by creating a trust fund and a department.

So states need to find revenue streams that work. I was able to do that without raising taxes—I lowered taxes—but we’ve got a pretty robust environment with energy resources. So I can create a set-aside stream that doesn’t go into the general fund—with their fees and their taxes. I separated it out a bit. We went from $300 million to $9 billion in six years, using some of that money along the way. That’s really big reserve for childcare.

And then we passed a constitutional amendment allowing us to use part of a $65 billion set of trust funds called the permanent funds, also paid for by oil and gas taxes. That money can be used. This is how we know it’s sustainable.

So the message to the states is: Create a department. Eight states have done that—or an agency or a bureau. So you bring all your other services for little kids together. Leverage that expertise so that you can build a system. Then you find a revenue stream; create a trust fund. I think that’s the smartest thing to do.

Right now, Wall Street—right, wrong, or indifferent—is a good place to get a return on your investment. We’re seeing record investments. That means you can return that money to the men and women who need your support to make the kinds of choices they need.

Last thing: I don’t know how you don’t do it. It builds an economy. It creates workers. Men and women can go to work when they want. I’m seeing record enrollment in our higher education.

And of course, I’m the only state in America that pays for college—two-year, four-year, part-time, full-time, anywhere, anytime. We do trades too—it’s CTE-related, apprenticeships and trades. No wrong door here to deciding what’s important to you and your family, in terms of where you want to work and who you want to be.

Bacon: A couple of important factors to note that I wanted you to talk about: You’re in a blue state, so your legislature is Democratic—that probably helps. On the other hand, New Mexico is not a superwealthy state. So there’s a balance here. So there’s not just free money here. You’ve had to really work to define and be strategic about this.

Governor Lujan Grisham: You do. And each state will have to really determine that—what revenue streams are going to work for them; how many kiddos they have, where are the big issues. [In] 41 states—41 states in America—your childcare payment is more than your mortgage. So states are trying to find ways to do affordable housing, ways to pay down mortgages, to offset the costs of developing and building so the overall mortgage is lower. Any number of things. They should do that too.

But imagine a situation where you’re increasing the income opportunities for your families and their wealth. You know what New Mexico needs? It needs to see an increase in wage growth and in overall well-being and family equity or equality related to their annual incomes. Well, guess what? These efforts in fact are doing just that. [We have] the highest wage growth in the country—and if I’m not quite right about that, to your listeners and viewers, we’re tied or in second place. You know, it shifts every quarter, but I believe we’re still in first place, and we just had record growth in family income well-being—in our supplemental income, when the Census Bureau looks at you for poverty, New Mexico’s trajectory is like this [gestures upward].

If you’re a poor state, that’s exactly what you want: individual income protection, gains, and wealth. Because if you don’t have that—particularly for a [majority-minority] state—I’m doing exactly the opposite; I’m repeating past mistakes. And that’s discriminatory for the very men and women who built this great state. I’m reversing that trajectory forever.

Bacon: Talk about—I think you all just finished or are finishing—a special session there. I think that’s an important development, because the federal policy has been bad, at least from my point of view.

Governor Lujan Grisham: From my point of view, bad. I’ll give you a plug—you’re right. Bad.

Bacon: So talk about what you all are trying to do—trying to help address Medicaid cuts, other funding cuts. Tell me what this special session was about that you just finished.

Governor Lujan Grisham: You got it. We asked the legislature to give us about $162 million to blunt the changes in Medicaid. It’s not enough—we’ve got a $20 billion problem over a decade with the tax cuts to billionaires that this Congress passed. So I want folks that are tuning in—this is really bad for America. So New Mexico started with $162 million. Here’s what that does.

It funds PBS—because I’m about public broadcasting. That’s also early childhood. Where do you think some of the programming for early education comes from? Right there. So we funded that. We’re putting money into a Medicaid trust fund—the same model I talked to you about for early childhood and childcare, we’re going to do the same thing for Medicaid so that we’re blunting that $20 billion over the long haul.

Create a trust fund, put money into it, build a revenue stream—so that we don’t have to make draconian cuts. Then, we are putting money into a patient affordability fund. Because if they’re not going to extend Affordable Care Act premium tax subsidies, in New Mexico, you see a near-doubling of your health care premiums. That means people don’t buy health insurance, that means the only place they get care is in the emergency room. That overwhelms my hospitals. So we’re making sure that we can blunt that problem. That’s the result of the shutdown. And we’ve got money right now because people have got to enroll, they have to make decisions, about private insurance right now in November.

We’ve protected New Mexicans there. Two last things: We’re gonna put $50 million into rural health centers that are losing money because of this effort. They’re losing money, they’re closing their doors. I’m going to give them money right now so they can stay open; I’ll pay for your losses. And I’m putting millions of dollars into food assistance, since that’s all gone. I want New Mexicans to know—you can’t have free child care, but you can’t feed your family. You have to have both. This is a state—and our Democratic legislators—they had your back. And I’m going to say: There were a couple of Republicans that voted with us, to make sure that we could do that, and I’m really grateful to them, because they recognized who they work for: everyday New Mexicans, Republicans and Democrats, that need a fair shake out of their government. And they’re getting that in New Mexico right now.

Bacon: All right, let’s move to where things are not moving as quickly—or as effectively—and that’s Washington, D.C. You served in Congress for about six years, so you’ve got some experience there. The Republicans control Washington, so this shutdown is ultimately about them. That said, Democrats in Congress have decided to take a stand, and really push hard for Obamacare subsidies, and also Medicare and Medicaid cuts to be reimbursed, and also this general idea that Donald Trump should follow the budgets passed [by Congress] and not just make up laws as he sees fit. Do you agree with the stand they’ve taken?

Governor Lujan Grisham: You know, I actually have to say—I’m not a big fan of shutdowns. I’ve got 20,000-plus workers who aren’t going to get paid. I’ve got serious issues with parks. And this may sound like it’s not a big deal, but it really is.

There’s a beautiful place, a federal park called Valles Caldera—it’s this pristine, gorgeous wilderness area in Northern New Mexico. They open it up once a year—you have to lottery in; it takes people their whole lives to lottery in for specialized hunt. This is an outdoor recreation state. This is a hunting state. These are folks who feed their families with an elk hunt. That’s now gone. It took you 40 years to lottery in, you just lost that hunt. You never get to go back there again. It’s really wrong.

So that may seem like it’s not a big deal, but if that’s how you were going to feed your family for the winter—it’s a big damn deal. So it’s all of the above. I don’t like shutdowns. But this is a Trump shutdown.

Congress has an obligation to figure it out—but he sets the agenda. He refuses to negotiate. He doesn’t care about everyday Americans. He promised to lower costs, he promised to have your backs. He has his own contract with Americans, which is “I’m going to make sure that we lower inflation; that things get better for you.” He has delivered the opposite. He’s made life harder for you, he’s made it harder for New Mexicans.

So I think it’s time for Congress to understand the burden that he’s created for you as a Republican is to vote against your very constituents, and Democrats are saying, maybe it’s time for you to have a backbone. I get it—that’s a worthwhile debate. But I’m really disappointed that we’re here.

And when they say, “Well, we could have done a clean CR for another twenty days,” this is what I want to say to America: Republicans are right here—except [when] they passed that tax break for billionaires. They didn’t have your back then. They haven’t had your back on a single appropriations bill. The president has done nothing to deliver on inflation or anything else. What would make you believe, as an everday American, whether you’re a

Democrat or Republican, that they’re going to meet their end of the bargain this time? It’s a lot like Charlie Brown—Lucy’s holding the football. No, thank you. Hand me the football, let me run for the touchdown, then maybe.

I think that we oughta not listen to this congressional rhetoric. This president did this to us. He should immediately demand that those subsidies and that inflation reduction strategies get into the CR. That’s leadership. This is on him.

Bacon: Let me finish with two questions—one silly, one is less silly. The silly one: I didn’t look it up before I got here, but I don’t know if there are any direct flights from Albuquerque to Des Moines.

Governor Lujan Grisham: Likely no.

Bacon: Thanks. So I’m going to ask if you’re considering—since you’re a second-term governor, you’ve been very effective—are you considering running for president? And second, the more important question: You’re in a majority-minority state, and the narrative is that Democrats have lost ground with Latinos, Democrats lost the election. You were, to your credit, kind of forceful with then-President Biden, saying “Are you the right person at this moment?” And you were right about that, and I respect that. So one question is: Are you thinking about running for president yourself? And then the broader question is, what should Democratic party be thinking about electorally to win future elections?

Governor Lujan Grisham: I’m going to do the second part first. The Democratic Party needs to stop worrying about labels and [start] worrying about results. Each state is a bit different. I focus every day on results—getting things done.

They oughta look to governors, because governors— I work work for every New Mexican: independents, “decline to state,” young people, older people, retired people, working people, Republicans, and Democrats. That’s my advice to the Democratic party. We spend so much time on the labels. “Are you a progressive? Are you a liberal?” I don’t think that’s useful anymore. And those policy issues can be very personal, but show how you get things done.

And two: there are a lot of great candidates already talking about running. I need to focus on—I’ve got a year to deliver a whole lot more in New Mexico. Housing; I want to deliver on crime, and I want to show real outcomes. Turning a hundred years of poverty that reflects itself in my education system. I want to turn that around, I’m feeling good. And I want more healthcare access in New Mexico. So let’s see if I get all that done. Maybe you’ll interview me again in a year, a year-and-a-half, and we can have a more concrete discussion then.

Bacon: All right. Governor, this was a great conversation. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Governor Lujan: You are a rock star. Thanks for having me.

Bacon: Thank you. Bye-bye.