This is a lightly edited transcript of the October 30 edition of Right Now With Perry Bacon. You can watch the video here or by following this show on YouTube or Substack.
Perry Bacon: Let’s talk about the government shutdown, first of all — and, like, not just in the broadest sense, but in the sense that tens of millions of Americans might lose benefits that help them pay for food.
We’re now getting, like, there’s been a lot of real, concrete issues happening this last month, but this is an extremely serious one.
Talk about what could happen and what you’re trying to do about it.
Senator Tina Smith: Yeah, so 40-plus million Americans rely on SNAP to put food on the table every day. I think something like 16 million of those are kids.
And let’s understand that the folks that rely on SNAP, that have a SNAP benefit—I mean, they’re either seniors living on a fixed income, or folks that have some disability that means that they can’t work. Or many of them are working one, two, even more jobs, but those jobs are so low-wage that they still can’t afford groceries without some additional assistance.
And so what’s happening right now, to be clear, is the Trump administration, that has all of the authority that they need to continue SNAP payments, is saying, nope, we’re not gonna do that. They even had guidance on their website that said they had the authority—this was clearly the congressional intent—and they’re just ignoring that. They took it down.
And it’s just—I mean, I thought I’d kind of seen it all—but to see them using kids and Americans as a bargaining chip because they refuse… they’re basically saying to Americans: either millions of folks can lose their health insurance because they can’t afford it, or millions of folks will lose their food nutrition benefit. You choose, America.
And I mean, that’s not our choice.
Bacon: Is there anything... Senate Democrats do not have a lot of power, obviously, right now.
Is there anything you all can do about this beyond... well, attention is important, by the way.
Senator Smith: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think it is really important. I think helping people to understand how this works is important. And I can tell you, I was just looking at some data showing what’s resonating on all of the different online platforms—and this issue of SNAP benefits is resonating.
Millions and millions of Americans are engaging on this topic online, just as of the last couple of days. So people are paying attention. And, you know, I always say Democrats may not be in power, but that does not mean that we are powerless—and we shouldn’t act like we’re powerless. We should use the power that we have to try to protect people.
And I mean, long term, then we have to try to figure out how to make it better. And so I think that’s kind of where we are. How this ends—I mean, Perry, I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, we’ve been waiting for a month for the Republicans to actually... all we’re saying is, hey, let’s negotiate, let’s figure out a path forward.
Compromise is the name of the game. And they’re basically saying, nope, you know, just come go along with us or forget about it. And, you know, so I don’t know what’s gonna happen. But it’s supremely frustrating. And I mean, I’m hearing from Minnesotans who are just, I mean, at their wits’ end—talking to people who are in the Minnesota National Guard who are trying to figure out how they’re gonna put food on the table—is a heartbreak.
Bacon: So talk about this last month. I mean, I guess a lot of us in March were — I would put myself in that group — a little flustered by what happened in terms of the government funding bill passed.
Seems like there wasn’t a real plan. There does seem to be a little, a bit of a, a real plan from Democrats this time — a real plan to fight on healthcare, to really focus on the issue.
At the same time, that hasn’t really... I mean, it’s good to see that you all stood up and you haven’t just let this bill pass. It doesn’t seem like they’ve moved that much either — the Republicans. Is that fair to say?
Senator Smith: I think that’s fair to say.
I mean, essentially, I mean, let’s kind of step back for a minute because this shutdown is part of a broader thing that’s happening in our country, which is that, I mean, I think we are, we are in a slide towards authoritarianism in this country. This isn’t a question of if it’s gonna happen, it’s much more a question of whether we can arrest what’s happening.
And so this battle that we are fighting on the shutdown is part of a much, is part of a bigger fight over protecting the basic institutions of our democracy. Last March, I was extremely disappointed that we didn’t take the fight to Republicans.
But, you know, things have changed also since then. The president’s approval ratings, people’s opinion of how the president is managing the country and the economy, even immigration, has dramatically declined. I mean, this gives me optimism. Americans are looking at what this President is doing and going, that’s not really what I want. I don’t think that that’s what our country should be all about.
And so that actually does give us more power to, to stand up, which is, you know, what we’re doing.
Bacon: I wanna switch gears a little bit to talk about — you mentioned authoritarianism on the rise here.
So, I guess the news is that Trump is gonna create some kind of, like, national, you know, broad group of all the National Guards that would then be some kind of quick reaction force — so more of this kind of... my political science friends say we’re moving toward competitive authoritarianism.
Like, where do you — you know, where, where do — when you describe, when people ask you what’s happening right now, how do you describe it?
Senator Smith: What I say is that we have a president who is ignoring and disrespecting the basic institutions of our democracy. And he is pushing the envelope in all the ways that he can think of to see how far he can go.
And we see that when it comes to free speech. We see it when it comes to the posse comitatus laws, saying that you cannot use the American military against American citizens. We see it in the way that he has used these masked ICE agents to deny—I mean, to literally kidnap people off the street—to hold people, including American citizens, in detention with no due process.
I mean, we see it in the way that he is literally shooting boats out of the water in the Caribbean with no accountability. And the challenge, of course, is that the way that you arrest this kind of authoritarianism is that the party that is in power has to say, no, you can’t do this. And that is not happening right now.
Republicans are not standing up to him at all. Will that change? How that changes is unclear to me. But so far, they seem to be, you know, in one way or another, just going along with it.
So of course, that means that it’s up to the American people to stand up to it. It’s up to our court system to stand up to it. And there’s some sources of optimism there—along with the fact that the president is deeply unpopular. That usually isn’t the case when these kinds of competitive authoritarian regimes take over. They usually do it from a base of public popularity, and that isn’t the situation now.
But, I mean, I kind of say, like, if you’re worried—you should be.
Bacon: We had these mass protests, and like you said, Trump is unpopular. Those are good. And it is different to say Trump is an authoritarian, but lots of people — particularly in the public — oppose him. That is, that’s better than if he was popular, right? I guess that’s the saving grace here, I guess.
Senator Smith: Yeah, that’s right. I’m so glad you brought that up because, you know, we saw all over the country, I think, the largest mass demonstration that we’ve ever seen in the history of our country.
And so I’m from Minnesota, and I spoke at the Minneapolis demonstration — over a hundred thousand people, by the organizers’ account, were there to march and show their patriotism is the way I saw it.
Over 80 different events in Minnesota, including in some small towns and red counties in Minnesota, people showed up to make their voices heard.
And that is definitely a source for us. That is a source of all of our power as we fight what’s happening in our country right now.
Bacon: Talk about—you’re in Minnesota, a state that is not super blue. It’s not Chicago, where Trump is sending these troops. It’s also not a super red state, like I’m in Kentucky.
So talk about, what are people—when you go to town halls, when you go Trump around—what are you hearing from people?
What about the, what are the sort of Minnesota-specific issues, or more Minnesota-focused issues, we should be thinking about?
Senator Smith: Yeah. Well, so, one of the things I love about my state is how diverse it is, and it’s diverse economically. We’re a big farm state. We’re a big mining and timber state.
We are a place where there’s tons of manufacturing that happens, especially in medical device. We’re home to one of the largest insurance companies in the country. And so there’s a lot of diversity in people’s economic foundation.
And what I’m hearing from people is—I mean, it’s interesting. I mean, to be honest, in the red parts of the state, I still hear a sense from a lot of folks that voted for Trump—a hundred, you know, 1,000,005 Minnesotans voted for Donald Trump. Less than half, but not insignificant.
Bacon: That’s big numbers.
Senator Smith: And what they’re saying is sort of, there’s a little bit of a kind of, let’s wait and see.
Let’s see where this goes. Yeah, I’m worried, but, you know, let’s wait and see. Of course, there’s a lot of righteous anger from people who see him basically ignoring folks’ civil rights and human rights — a lot of that.
But here’s the thing that I was just — this is on my mind ‘cause I was just talking to a group of farmers who came in to see me today before this call. What they’re seeing is — they’re seeing an economic environment where they can tell that there’s plenty of money. It’s just, it’s not going to them.
It’s the same thing in healthcare, right? There’s plenty of money in healthcare. It’s just going to the big insurance companies. There’s plenty of money in agriculture, but farmers are on the verge of bankruptcy. And so they’re looking at this and they’re saying, how is this gonna possibly work for me, for my family?
I was talking to a group of young people yesterday who were shortly out of college, good educations, and they’re like, what is my chance of ever buying a home? Or how am I gonna afford my healthcare?
So the point here is that this economy is not working for millions of people — millions of Americans — and Trump is not making it better. People might have voted for him because they were so fed up with the status quo that they were willing to take a flyer on him. But it’s not working for them, and he is making it worse.
He is helping to concentrate all that power and wealth in fewer and fewer people. And I mean, to me, this is the future — offering a true alternative to this, so that we are not just tweaking around the edges of an economy that is consolidating power and wealth in the hands of just a few people, just a few big institutions — which is basically, in his corruption, what he’s doing.
So to me, I’m surprised at how even people who are probably pretty conservative by nature — this is what they were talking to me about this morning.
Bacon: Alternatives. Let me talk about your party a little bit here.
It looks like next week you’re gonna have Zohran Mamdani, who has a pretty aggressive platform of change and is going to win. You also have Abigail Spanberger, who I think herself would acknowledge she’s a little less transformative — a little bit more focused on the practical, or not practical, or more modest change.
So if that happens next week, where Abigail Spanberger wins by a lot, but so does Zohran Mamdani, what does that tell us? Those are sort of different states, but I just want to address the two — a moderate, sort of quote-unquote ‘moderate,’ and a more political progressive — who are gonna win next week.
What does that talk [sound like]?
Senator Smith: Well, isn’t that so interesting? ‘cause I mean, you and I both know that what will happen is that people will look at the results and they’ll find in them what they wanna see.
Bacon: That’s why I’m trying early. Right, exactly.
Senator Smith: They’ll be like, that’s what I thought. And, I mean, I think one lesson that I will learn depending on what happens — and I hope, um, you know, I certainly hope that Abigail Spanberger wins, and I hope that Sherrill wins in New Jersey.
I mean, I think one thing is that — and, you know, the simplest answer is that we need to be a big tent party. We need to have space for all different kinds of leaders. And I believe that.
But what I believe more is that the Democratic Party cannot just be the anti-Trump party. We have tried that, and look where we are. And if we aren’t challenging the status quo aggressively, if we aren’t proposing better ideas for how to make sure that people in this country can see a way for their work to have meaning, for their kids to have a chance, then we’re gonna continue to be in the wilderness. We’re gonna continue to be a minority party, and we’re not gonna be able to compete for those votes.
I mean, I refuse to believe that there aren’t votes that Democrats can win in your home state — of course there are. But not if we’re just sort of a pale version of the Republicans, or we’re sort of defending the status quo, or we are talking about minor tweaks when fundamentally massive things are wrong.
To me, that’s the through line through these elections, and, you know, what’s happened last year, and what I hope will happen in 2026.
Bacon: I’m not sure if you’ve endorsed Zohran. I’m not... I, you know, you’re not in New York even, but I mean, have you liked what you’ve heard in that campaign?
Senator Smith: Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, I’m a senator from Minnesota, and I don’t usually endorse in other mayor’s races, but I’m super enthusiastic about, um, Mamdani.
I think that it’s incredibly— I mean, I’m an organizer. I came into politics working at the grassroots and going door to door and talking to people about what mattered to them. And the way that he has mobilized voters, the way that he is unafraid to propose big ideas and big solutions for the big challenges that New Yorkers have affording their lives — there’s a lot for us to learn from that.
And, um, especially when you compare him to the corruption of an Andrew Cuomo — I mean, come on.
But again, what I love about him is that he is not just anti-Cuomo. He’s proposing something that has obviously really excited a bunch of people.
And we need to do more of that.
Bacon: I guess the question is like, what does a transformative idea look like in national politics? Because I think you could — the sort of free buses and free childcare, we should do that nationally. But I think free buses may not apply to Louisville as much, or Minneapolis — maybe Minneapolis more.
But in terms of, are there other — what does it look like to sort of scale that ambition, but on a national scale?
Senator Smith: Yeah. Well, so, my friend Chris Murphy says something that I think is really smart. He says that, you know, our policy needs to be our message.
And, I mean, so here’s just an example of that. ‘Cause I think that we know what are the 80% issues that most Americans care about — that we need to be offering actual solutions to.
I mean, everybody should have paid family and medical leave. Okay, so now you could, you could say, you know, paid family and medical leave for everybody and we’re gonna do free childcare for everybody.
Or you could say you shouldn’t have to pay more than 7% of your income for childcare, and we’re gonna pass a law that establishes a sliding scale for childcare so that you can afford it.
Bacon: Okay. That’s good. That’s actually very practical. The Democratic response is normally some kind of tax credit that’s very hard to understand.
Senator Smith: Yes, and we care about it. You know, we want it to work. We’re actually trying to make government do what it should be doing, which is to improve the lives of Americans, rather than being a tool to consolidate wealth and power in the hands of fewer and fewer people and big corporations.
Bacon: Final thing is... my mom would tell me not to bring up people’s age usually, but I think that you’re 67, is that right?
Senator Smith: That is true. I’m proud of it.
Bacon: So the important thing over the audience is, uh, Senator Smith is not running for reelection next year. Her seat is up and she’s not running. There’s, and there’s a real discourse about age and the Democratic Party, and I wanna ask you about this. You know, I’ll give my own bias here.
I think Senator Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and Tina Smith are excellent senators, and I’m glad they’re there and they’re older than I am and age in their cases is a number. And maybe they, you know, maybe they can’t run marathons or what have you. Maybe you can.
Senator Smith: I don’t. No, I never could.
Bacon: Yeah, but I just think that some of our best senators are older.
At the same time, I respect the perspective that maybe younger people, or the, the, the entire Congress might be — as a group — might be too old, even if I like some of the older people.
So, I respect your decision. So I want you to talk about what made you make it, and what you think about the sort of age issue in the party.
Senator Smith: Well, so it’s pretty funny because, you know, I’ll have people come up to me — like if I’m walking around the lake in Minneapolis, and I’m walking around with my husband Archie — and people will come up to me and they’ll say, you know, thank you so much for deciding not to run. I really appreciate it.
And I say to Archie, to be clear, like, they like me — it’s just they appreciated what I was, the step that I’m taking.
And so, I mean, honestly, one of the things about me and my life is that there — I mean, there’s so many interesting things to do. There’s so many useful things to do. There’s so many ways of making good trouble. I will have served in the Senate for nine years when I’m done, and I look at where I wanna be when I’m 74, 75, and I wanna be doing something else.
But, like, core for me is I look at my state and I see that we have talented, young, progressive leaders that are more than ready to step into this role and step into this fight. And I get a big... I love to think about, like, making space for them. To me, that is part of my legacy as a progressive leader myself.
But, you know, the other thing you’re saying is that it’s not — of course, it isn’t just about age. I mean, Graham Platner has said this in Maine. It’s not about age. It’s about, like, the power of your ideas.
And I mean, I would argue that — I would argue with anybody — that Bernie and Elizabeth are doing incredibly important work to chart a course forward for their states and for our party nationally.
And so, it isn’t about age so much as it is about your willingness to go against and challenge the status quo — not be part of the establishment. Neither Bernie nor Elizabeth are part of the establishment. And that is why they’re... and the establishment protects itself, right? It protects itself, and that’s not what they’re about.
And I think, to me, that’s the difference.
Bacon: But for you, you think stepping aside is important — I mean, in general though, you think more people in the party, forget, without naming anybody — more senators, more House members should step aside after seven, one term, two terms, something like that?
Senator Smith: I mean, the way I look at it is, because I sometimes I know... I am not burdened by the idea that I am the only one who can do this job.
Bacon: Okay.
Senator Smith: I can see other folks. Now, if you’re trying to win in Ohio and you’re Sherrod Brown — who is one of my dear friends and a passionate advocate for working people — like, God love him for being willing to stay in the fight. But that’s not Minnesota. You know, I’m very excited about the folks that could step in.
And so that’s, like, the important predicate to any decision that I would make about this. And too many people think that they’re the only one. And that’s a bit of a conceit that happens when you’ve been in the Senate for a long time, and you believe that that’s the case.
And again, it’s not just about age. It’s about your willingness to kind of challenge the conventional thinking and try to actually make the systemic change that needs to be made. I think.
Bacon: Okay. Senator Smith, on that note, I appreciate you coming on. Thanks for talking to me.
Senator Smith: Thanks a lot, Perry. It’s great to visit with you.
Bacon: Good to see you. Bye-bye.
